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*ooɯ* RR Addict (1689) |
Lythinae wrote:
Mystic Rhythm wrote:
o yeah .. but they still have emotions as such lke angry happy ect i think . |
At a very basic level, yes. But generally things like 'angry' have a root cause, and are more related to instinct than 'emotion'. Aggression, which people label as 'angry', can be fear related (from the flight/fight response) or dominance related (when an owner isn't an effective enough 'leader').
Think about all the horses that get labelled bad, nasty and vindictive - 'he bucks me off all the time because he hates me/hates jumping/hates dressage ect' - when it's a reaction to pain/confusion. That's giving human emotion and motivations - a horse is simply not capable of it, his brain does not work that way. It's called anthropomorphism - attributing human traits to something that does not have them (everyone does it, and it's not really a bad thing when it means you have empathy towards something, but it doesn't have a place in training). |
*CLAPS* :bow:
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| Reg 24/2/2010 | | Posted 4:49pm, Monday 12th July | |
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Mystic Rhythm RR Vice President (13350) |
Lythinae wrote:
Mystic Rhythm wrote:
o yeah .. but they still have emotions as such lke angry happy ect i think . |
At a very basic level, yes. But generally things like 'angry' have a root cause, and are more related to instinct than 'emotion'. Aggression, which people label as 'angry', can be fear related (from the flight/fight response) or dominance related (when an owner isn't an effective enough 'leader').
Think about all the horses that get labelled bad, nasty and vindictive - 'he bucks me off all the time because he hates me/hates jumping/hates dressage ect' - when it's a reaction to pain/confusion. That's giving human emotion and motivations - a horse is simply not capable of it, his brain does not work that way. It's called anthropomorphism - attributing human traits to something that does not have them (everyone does it, and it's not really a bad thing when it means you have empathy towards something, but it doesn't have a place in training). |
awwww that makes much more sence haha 
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| Reg 17/10/2007 | | Posted 4:01pm, Monday 12th July | |
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Mystic Rhythm wrote:
o yeah .. but they still have emotions as such lke angry happy ect i think . |
At a very basic level, yes. But generally things like 'angry' have a root cause, and are more related to instinct than 'emotion'. Aggression, which people label as 'angry', can be fear related (from the flight/fight response) or dominance related (when an owner isn't an effective enough 'leader').
Think about all the horses that get labelled bad, nasty and vindictive - 'he bucks me off all the time because he hates me/hates jumping/hates dressage ect' - when it's a reaction to pain/confusion. That's giving human emotion and motivations - a horse is simply not capable of it, his brain does not work that way. It's called anthropomorphism - attributing human traits to something that does not have them (everyone does it, and it's not really a bad thing when it means you have empathy towards something, but it doesn't have a place in training).
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| | | | Posted 10:55am, Monday 12th July | |
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Mystic Rhythm RR Vice President (13350) |
Dressage Star wrote:
Mystic Rhythm wrote:
Lythinae wrote:
Generally speaking, most species don't have 'emotions' as we think of them, their brains don't function the same way ours does. Something like arrogance would require an animal to be self aware, when most species aren't.
A horse can learn, but it can't wake up in the morning and think 'I'm going to be a -: :- today', which tends to be what a lot of people think. |
o yeah .. but they still have emotions as such lke angry happy ect i think . |
its not the same at all though, their emotions come down to respect etc |
o yeah i kinda get it haha 
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| Reg 17/10/2007 | | Posted 4:23pm, Sunday 11th July | |
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Dressage Star RR Governer (8111) |
Mystic Rhythm wrote:
Lythinae wrote:
Mystic Rhythm wrote:
Lol im not trying to be like uh but animal emotions what are they ? haha |
Generally speaking, most species don't have 'emotions' as we think of them, their brains don't function the same way ours does. Something like arrogance would require an animal to be self aware, when most species aren't.
A horse can learn, but it can't wake up in the morning and think 'I'm going to be a -: :- today', which tends to be what a lot of people think. |
o yeah .. but they still have emotions as such lke angry happy ect i think . |
its not the same at all though, their emotions come down to respect etc
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| Reg 1/10/2006 | | Posted 9:12am, Sunday 11th July | |
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Mystic Rhythm RR Vice President (13350) |
Lythinae wrote:
Mystic Rhythm wrote:
crystal= wrote:
]
people put emotions on EVERYTHING though - they even do it to inanimate objects!
"OMG MY COMPUTER HATES ME!" is a classic example |
Lol im not trying to be like uh but animal emotions what are they ? haha |
Generally speaking, most species don't have 'emotions' as we think of them, their brains don't function the same way ours does. Something like arrogance would require an animal to be self aware, when most species aren't.
A horse can learn, but it can't wake up in the morning and think 'I'm going to be a -: :- today', which tends to be what a lot of people think. |
o yeah .. but they still have emotions as such lke angry happy ect i think .
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| Reg 17/10/2007 | | Posted 7:26am, Sunday 11th July | |
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S A R A H H :] RR Vice President (10013) | I think the problem with spurs is they are over-used sooo much! Because the horse is 'lazy'. So many people dont actually understand what they are used for, which is not to get the horse faster (seriously thats an answer Ive got from a few people...). And people use them without actually having any control of their leg, which is why I absolutely refuse to use them in jumping. My instructor used massive ones on him for jumping and that was fine he went well, I had a lesson one day with a diff instructor who got me to put spurs on for a jump lesson, and over one jump he did a massive leap and when he landed i accidentally slipped my leg back which the spur then jabbed him and he didnt appreciate that (even tho it wasnt a massively hard jab) and had a bucking fit, and I wont wear them now. Until I know my leg is going to stay perfectly still no matter what happens, then I will consider it. But if I dont need them, I wont use them Ive seen too many PC kids digging them in so the horse naps and they get harder with the legs and its a vicious circle. But Im not totally against the use of spurs or anything, just MIS-use
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| Reg 30/5/2009 | | Posted 9:36pm, Saturday 10th July | |
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Lollie RR Vice President (26559) |
Taihoa wrote:
LightMyFire wrote:
I would also like to point out to everyone, as it seems to be a piece of knowledge that is long forgotten ... The spur was originally invented to lift the horses back ... Just a bit of food for thought you can ponder on ... |
hallelujah!!! about time someone brought up the TRUTH!!
i ride with spurs all the time - doesn't mean i use them all the time.
i bet not one of you could ride tai collected and moving forward without spurs - at 18.3hh you need alot of power to lift him up - spurs do that subtly without the constant kick kick kick or tiring the rider so they can't ride properly for the rest of the test. very rarely do you see GP riders without spurs - think about it!
perhaps if you learnt to use spurs correctly and understood the reasons for their use you would stop bagging people who use them! |
Personally I wouldn't even attempt riding a horse as big as Tai with the expectation of actually getting it collected as I know my stubby little legs couldn't do it - even with spurs.
I don't disagree with spurs being used by people who truely understand how they should be used, or by people who do it under instruction, but the number of people who chuck them on just because their horse is "lazy" really grinds my gears.
I've never known why they were origionally invented, but was under the impression that they were commonly used to define the aids - the GP horses you mentioned are a perfect example of what I'm meaning - they have SO many different "buttons" that unless you want your legs swinging all over the show to give all the different aids, spurs are great because they mean you can give aids in much closer spaces without muddling them, if that makes any sense what so ever?
Big horses with comparitively small riders is another situation I can see them being used effectively, but when low level riders on "good" sized horses wear spurs I believe it should only be necesarry (as a general rule) under instruction, or as Andrea does in a warm up (not calling you a low level rider by the way Andrea - just using it as an example )
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| Reg 5/1/2008 | | Posted 9:06pm, Saturday 10th July | |
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*ooɯ* RR Addict (1689) |
westie wrote:
Taihoa wrote:
LightMyFire wrote:
I would also like to point out to everyone, as it seems to be a piece of knowledge that is long forgotten ... The spur was originally invented to lift the horses back ... Just a bit of food for thought you can ponder on ... |
hallelujah!!! about time someone brought up the TRUTH!!
i ride with spurs all the time - doesn't mean i use them all the time.
i bet not one of you could ride tai collected and moving forward without spurs - at 18.3hh you need alot of power to lift him up - spurs do that subtly without the constant kick kick kick or tiring the rider so they can't ride properly for the rest of the test. very rarely do you see GP riders without spurs - think about it!
perhaps if you learnt to use spurs correctly and understood the reasons for their use you would stop bagging people who use them! |
I know of a GP rider who only rides with spurs at comps..not at home. |
i also know quite a few GP and advanced riders who do not wear spurs when schooling at home and they also dont very often use a double bridle, only at competitions when they are compulsory..
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| Reg 24/2/2010 | | Posted 6:23pm, Saturday 10th July | |
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LightMyFire RR Citizen (899) | I think my initial comment regarding spurs has been a little misinterpreted ... As one of the great masters said, you train the horse without spurs, when you put the spur on, you give the horse wings.
Nothing compensates for correct schooling. If the horse is schooled correctly from day one, they ARE light to the aids, not lazy, not requiring pushing or kicking. You do not need to push or kick or nag with the legs to collect a horse.
The spur is purely a refinement of the aids, and allows the rider to activate a more specific area of the abdominals/obliques to lift the back. Contrary to popular belief, long and low does not lift the horses back.
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| Reg 19/7/2009 | | Posted 6:08pm, Saturday 10th July | |
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westie RR Addict (1356) |
Taihoa wrote:
LightMyFire wrote:
I would also like to point out to everyone, as it seems to be a piece of knowledge that is long forgotten ... The spur was originally invented to lift the horses back ... Just a bit of food for thought you can ponder on ... |
hallelujah!!! about time someone brought up the TRUTH!!
i ride with spurs all the time - doesn't mean i use them all the time.
i bet not one of you could ride tai collected and moving forward without spurs - at 18.3hh you need alot of power to lift him up - spurs do that subtly without the constant kick kick kick or tiring the rider so they can't ride properly for the rest of the test. very rarely do you see GP riders without spurs - think about it!
perhaps if you learnt to use spurs correctly and understood the reasons for their use you would stop bagging people who use them! |
I know of a GP rider who only rides with spurs at comps..not at home.
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| Reg 20/11/2009 | | Posted 5:00pm, Saturday 10th July | |
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crystal= wrote:
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just talked to matt about it - he thinks animals do have emotions.
bear in mind emotions and thoughts are completely different things.
for example: dogs wag their tail and get excited when they see their owner, and when they're sad they go hide in a corner with their tail between their legs, and when they're angry/scared they bare their teeth, growl, bark etc they feel the same emotions that we do. |
Animal 'emotion' is often a reaction to their environment - dogs get excited when they see their owner because good things (like food or play) happen then. Dogs do have a very narrow range of emotion - it's much more basic than ours (from memory they have about 5 'emotions').
They can 'read' human faces in the same way we can and react accordingly. Say you've had a really bad day, and you come home grumpy or pissed off. Dog is a little hesitant to come, or sits quietly on it's bed - it's not sad, it's responding to signals from you. Saying it's sad is attaching a human emotion that it isn't capable of (it's probably closer to a flight/submission sort of response).
Compare them with primates and dolphins (who have much more complex brains and are generally considered to be capable of human like emotion)- complex societies and culture, self awareness, teaching, humour, mourning.
horsey_gal wrote:
but rearing/bucking/napping is their mode of survival and their way to tell us that something is not right, whether it's confusion or pain. |
It can be a learned response. Either through remembered pain/discomfort or through bad 'training'. Say a horse naps in order to go back to other horses/safe space. Rider stops and gets off (rinse, repeat). Horse learns 'go backwards' will result in stop. Generally tho, I agree with you 
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| | | | Posted 4:15pm, Saturday 10th July | |
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*ooɯ* RR Addict (1689) |
horsey_gal wrote:
They certianly have emotions and feelings etc.. but don't interpret them in the same way- the only thing is really that they can't plot and plan against us and think " oh now i'm just going to be a REAL -: Female Dog :- because you did that to me!" -unlike many humans, they actually do want to work with you and not to cause arguments, but rearing/bucking/napping is their mode of survival and their way to tell us that something is not right, whether it's confusion or pain.
No, they can't think like us but certainly do have feelings- just not the way that us humans interpret them. Of coourse they can feel happy/sad/other things, but do not display arrogance/selfishness etc, no matter how hard we try to think that they are! They actually CAN'T! |
exactly they show behaviour rather then human emotions
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| Reg 24/2/2010 | | Posted 2:44pm, Saturday 10th July | |
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horsey_gal RR Addict (2014) | They certianly have emotions and feelings etc.. but don't interpret them in the same way- the only thing is really that they can't plot and plan against us and think " oh now i'm just going to be a REAL -: Female Dog :- because you did that to me!" -unlike many humans, they actually do want to work with you and not to cause arguments, but rearing/bucking/napping is their mode of survival and their way to tell us that something is not right, whether it's confusion or pain.
No, they can't think like us but certainly do have feelings- just not the way that us humans interpret them. Of coourse they can feel happy/sad/other things, but do not display arrogance/selfishness etc, no matter how hard we try to think that they are! They actually CAN'T!
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| Reg 13/11/2004 | | Posted 2:18pm, Saturday 10th July | |
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Jenn RR Vice President (12000) |
crystal= wrote:
]
Lythinae wrote:
Mystic Rhythm wrote:
Lol im not trying to be like uh but animal emotions what are they ? haha |
Generally speaking, most species don't have 'emotions' as we think of them, their brains don't function the same way ours does. Something like arrogance would require an animal to be self aware, when most species aren't.
A horse can learn, but it can't wake up in the morning and think 'I'm going to be a -: :- today', which tends to be what a lot of people think. |
just talked to matt about it - he thinks animals do have emotions.
bear in mind emotions and thoughts are completely different things.
for example: dogs wag their tail and get excited when they see their owner, and when they're sad they go hide in a corner with their tail between their legs, and when they're angry/scared they bare their teeth, growl, bark etc
they feel the same emotions that we do. |
They sure feel pain too.
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| Reg 25/3/2007 | | Posted 2:02pm, Saturday 10th July | |
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crystal=] RR Vice President (26770) |
Lythinae wrote:
Mystic Rhythm wrote:
crystal= wrote:
]
people put emotions on EVERYTHING though - they even do it to inanimate objects!
"OMG MY COMPUTER HATES ME!" is a classic example |
Lol im not trying to be like uh but animal emotions what are they ? haha |
Generally speaking, most species don't have 'emotions' as we think of them, their brains don't function the same way ours does. Something like arrogance would require an animal to be self aware, when most species aren't.
A horse can learn, but it can't wake up in the morning and think 'I'm going to be a -: :- today', which tends to be what a lot of people think. |
just talked to matt about it - he thinks animals do have emotions.
bear in mind emotions and thoughts are completely different things.
for example: dogs wag their tail and get excited when they see their owner, and when they're sad they go hide in a corner with their tail between their legs, and when they're angry/scared they bare their teeth, growl, bark etc
they feel the same emotions that we do.
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| Reg 14/12/2007 | | Posted 1:58pm, Saturday 10th July | |
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*ooɯ* RR Addict (1689) |
Lythinae wrote:
Mystic Rhythm wrote:
crystal= wrote:
]
people put emotions on EVERYTHING though - they even do it to inanimate objects!
"OMG MY COMPUTER HATES ME!" is a classic example |
Lol im not trying to be like uh but animal emotions what are they ? haha |
Generally speaking, most species don't have 'emotions' as we think of them, their brains don't function the same way ours does. Something like arrogance would require an animal to be self aware, when most species aren't.
A horse can learn, but it can't wake up in the morning and think 'I'm going to be a -: :- today', which tends to be what a lot of people think. |
AGREEEEEEEED
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| Reg 24/2/2010 | | Posted 12:58pm, Saturday 10th July | |
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Jenn RR Vice President (12000) |
Taihoa wrote:
LightMyFire wrote:
I would also like to point out to everyone, as it seems to be a piece of knowledge that is long forgotten ... The spur was originally invented to lift the horses back ... Just a bit of food for thought you can ponder on ... |
hallelujah!!! about time someone brought up the TRUTH!!
i ride with spurs all the time - doesn't mean i use them all the time.
i bet not one of you could ride tai collected and moving forward without spurs - at 18.3hh you need alot of power to lift him up - spurs do that subtly without the constant kick kick kick or tiring the rider so they can't ride properly for the rest of the test. very rarely do you see GP riders without spurs - think about it!
perhaps if you learnt to use spurs correctly and understood the reasons for their use you would stop bagging people who use them! |
*like*
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| Reg 25/3/2007 | | Posted 11:28am, Saturday 10th July | |
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Taihoa RR Governer (5358) |
LightMyFire wrote:
I would also like to point out to everyone, as it seems to be a piece of knowledge that is long forgotten ... The spur was originally invented to lift the horses back ... Just a bit of food for thought you can ponder on ... |
hallelujah!!! about time someone brought up the TRUTH!!
i ride with spurs all the time - doesn't mean i use them all the time.
i bet not one of you could ride tai collected and moving forward without spurs - at 18.3hh you need alot of power to lift him up - spurs do that subtly without the constant kick kick kick or tiring the rider so they can't ride properly for the rest of the test. very rarely do you see GP riders without spurs - think about it!
perhaps if you learnt to use spurs correctly and understood the reasons for their use you would stop bagging people who use them!
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| Reg 26/7/2009 | | Posted 11:22am, Saturday 10th July | |
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Mystic Rhythm wrote:
crystal= wrote:
]
*ooɯ* wrote:
EXACTLY!!! thank you. It frustrates me lol |
people put emotions on EVERYTHING though - they even do it to inanimate objects!
"OMG MY COMPUTER HATES ME!" is a classic example |
Lol im not trying to be like uh but animal emotions what are they ? haha |
Generally speaking, most species don't have 'emotions' as we think of them, their brains don't function the same way ours does. Something like arrogance would require an animal to be self aware, when most species aren't.
A horse can learn, but it can't wake up in the morning and think 'I'm going to be a -: :- today', which tends to be what a lot of people think.
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| | | | Posted 10:30am, Saturday 10th July | |
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