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crystal= wrote:
]FYI - only said regarding Anky because I had read the articles on horsetalk regarding her rollkur 'issues'.
i have NEVER watched international riders warm up at big shows, was only basing this on what i had read.
so - -: Female Dog :- about the other riders if you must  |
I get where you were going with this thread. It was just a random something that I was thinking about (and it's probably a sign I read too much lol).
I do (I'll -: Female Dog :- about anything I think is shitty  ) I got an interesting response criticizing Edward Gall for using the same technique (seriously, people *worship* the guy, yet there's plenty of video of him riding Tortilas and Gribaldi in rollkur).
I know Anky's put herself out and openly talked about using it, but it's not new and she's not the only one (bleeding tongue at WEG and blue tongue video) ... yet no one else inspires such frothing at the mouth and really nasty name calling. I find the difference interesting (I sort of suspect I know why ... but that's a whole different topic).
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| | | | Posted 9:14am, Saturday 11th December | |
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Lollie RR Vice President (26088) |
*ooɯ* wrote:
crystal= wrote:
]
so - -: Female Dog :- about the other riders if you must |
why do we need to?? |
She's said if you must.
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| Reg 5/1/2008 | | Posted 10:04pm, Friday 10th December | |
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*ooɯ* RR Addict (1689) |
crystal= wrote:
]
so - -: Female Dog :- about the other riders if you must |
why do we need to??
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| Reg 24/2/2010 | | Posted 9:36pm, Friday 10th December | |
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crystal=] RR Vice President (26340) | FYI - only said regarding Anky because I had read the articles on horsetalk regarding her rollkur 'issues'.
i have NEVER watched international riders warm up at big shows, was only basing this on what i had read.
so - -: Female Dog :- about the other riders if you must
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| Reg 14/12/2007 | | Posted 9:05pm, Friday 10th December | |
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*ooɯ* RR Addict (1689) |
Lythinae wrote:
This is probably a bit random, bit Isis's reply to Crystal kind of triggered it.
Why the rabid anti-Anky? She's held up as everything wrong with modern dressage, yet no one says the same thing about Isabel or Edward (who practically gets worshiped these days). I find the disparity interesting. |
me too... grrrr it is NOT just Anky... how many people watch the top dressage riders warm up at events like at archen!!!?? obviously people only watch Anky.. and not anyone else!
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| Reg 24/2/2010 | | Posted 8:27pm, Friday 10th December | |
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| This is probably a bit random, bit Isis's reply to Crystal kind of triggered it.
Why the rabid anti-Anky? She's held up as everything wrong with modern dressage, yet no one says the same thing about Isabel or Edward (who practically gets worshiped these days). I find the disparity interesting.
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| | | | Posted 2:18pm, Friday 10th December | |
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Isis Super Jockey (195) |
crystal= wrote:
]i meant not so much the use of rollkur (of course that's banned for a reason), more the thoughts on anky using it for her being such a high profile figure and an idol for other riders. |
Which leads me to this-I used to idolize Anky and Bonfire many years ago-and I didn't know what I was looking at-just someone at the top of their discipline and to be inspired by. Back then I also thought learning the german system was the key to success as germans were also at the top in dressage.For Anky to display or promote such a pathological practise (and Im talking rolkur and her version of LDR-even if it lasts 1 sec!) is a severe misplacement of trust for horses and riders. How can she be revered as an idol when she is basically promoting animal cruelty? Some answers lie in our judging systems-we need to look at the bigger picture and ask yourself-why do some 'classical' trainers choose to not participate in competitive dressage?
And to raise the profile of dressage in NZ for example, therefore involving the wider community, therefore raising wider awareness of how horses are trained/competed etc, what do we need to do? The public aren't particularly interested in watching tests-and as outsiders are often repulsed by how they see horses being treated, musical freestyles are popular, as Im sure theaticral type displays would be. These are more common overseas where more people practise haute ecole and play with tricks/liberty etc. Perhaps we could look outside 'competitive disciplines' to help our horses (and train some of our judges differently).
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| Reg 11/4/2005 | | Posted 12:27pm, Friday 10th December | |
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Isis Super Jockey (195) |
Getting back to the original post-looks like we nearly all agree rolkur is bad. Just putting my 2 cents in,that after studing and training with Dr Deb Bennett (phd vertebrate palenontology specialising in quadrapeds and equines) I have been taught to recognise pathologial riding and this is a brilliant example.(by the way Dr Deb is far easier and more logical to follow than Dr Gerd IMO) If you understand the anatomy and biomechanics of physiotherapeutic riding you will see the flat lumbo sacral joint with the hind legs straining to step under (you can almost see the ligaments,vertebraes and muscles ripping), the base of neck jammed down, the extreme broken neck posture etc.. Ughh it is disgusting. This is also part of the reason for the sheer amount of horses these intensive breeding nations and some trainers in particular go through, yes they are breeding a good quality horse that is more likely to withstand these conditions, but they are regularly becoming unsound well before the age of 20, and require intensive ongoing maintenance from physios,vets etc.
This is something Dr Andrew Mclean also tries to raise awareness of-horse wastage statistics. And another thing-learned helplessness, the constant pressure on these horses mouths etc with no response offered by the horse resulting in release of pressure causes them to sink inside themselves to escape, (known as birdie theory by Dr Deb) sometimes coming out in explosive fashion (othewise known as conflict behaviour). Actually it is possible to control a 600kg horse through pain and fear-I personally know of a 'top' trainer in NZ that operate this way. Yes they often nearly get killed, and the horses that keep fighting get put down, but the other horses become 'dead' you often see the whites of their eyes, eyes glazed over, robotic going thru the motions. Yet this person wins at the highest level and is rewarded for this sick system.
Awareness of horse welfare is growing slowly but steadily, but nowhere near fast enough.
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| Reg 11/4/2005 | | Posted 12:12pm, Friday 10th December | |
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*ooɯ* RR Addict (1689) |
Lythinae wrote:
A horse can be ignorant, and it can be confused (it does not understand what is being asked, because the direction being give isn't clear. That's a failing of the rider, not the horse). While not exactly synonymous, they can be linked.
It can not be willfully ignorant, and it can not be arrogant because that is not how a horse brain functions. |
*like* just like what i said
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| Reg 24/2/2010 | | Posted 9:10pm, Monday 6th December | |
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| A horse can be ignorant, and it can be confused (it does not understand what is being asked, because the direction being give isn't clear. That's a failing of the rider, not the horse). While not exactly synonymous, they can be linked.
It can not be willfully ignorant, and it can not be arrogant because that is not how a horse brain functions.
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| | | | Posted 10:44am, Monday 6th December | |
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*ooɯ* RR Addict (1689) | the meaning of ignorant... 'lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact' so therefore if a horse does not know what is being asked, he may not have been schooled correctly, or may not have been aske to do say a half pass before and then being asked to preform it.. he is there for being ignorant to what is being asked... there is also confusion to what is being asked where the aids are not being given clearly, so they can become confused therefore ignorance and concfusion are different but feelings of a horse
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| Reg 24/2/2010 | | Posted 9:39pm, Sunday 5th December | |
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Elevation Executive Jockey (414) | I know this post is old but this interested me.
Jenn wrote:
Horses are allowed to make mistakes, but there is a line that I will not have crossed, mistaking ignorance with confusion is not a hard thing to do. |
You say you are experienced in training horses however I ask: Do you believe that horses can actually be ignorant? I don't think they can. Just like they don't wake up in the morning, see you walking across the paddock and plan to be naughty the whole day just to -: Yellow Snow :- you off.
I believe "Correction" not punishment is the key. And believe me correction without punishment is possible.
Just off topic and food for thought. (Agree it is unbelievable that rolkur being curel even had to be discussed!)
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| Reg 24/4/2006 | | Posted 3:47pm, Sunday 5th December | |
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pete my boi RR Governer (7865) |
Jenn wrote:
pete my boi wrote:
horsey_gal wrote:
The thing is that if you have to use SO much force on an animal to get it to do what you want, then you should really just review your training methods- I can assure you, the horses would rather be lovely and light and responsive rather than forcing themselves to dull to the pain and pressure of the riders hands/legs on their mouths/sides. It doesn't matter how big they are- you just need to find a way to motivate them to want to do it. |
i agree. you shouldnt have to force a horse to do anything. if it wants to do it it will |
You cannot force an animal that size to do anything. No matter how much pain/pressure/force you apply. Simple as that. |
yet you stated that shoving the horses head up its daisies to get it to do what you want? thats forcing it!
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| Reg 4/5/2007 | | Posted 5:33pm, Saturday 25th September | |
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crystal=] RR Vice President (26340) |
Zanzibar wrote:
crystal= wrote:
]
Zanzibar wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svOBsSdjUvU&feature=related
I think she raises a very valid point - granted that the horse ONLY stays in hyperflexion for the 20 seconds like they say, and its not abused. |
but she also said she doesn't know how long she uses hyper-flexion for. she openly admitted it could be up to 15mins (not jumping on you, just stating a fact)
it was a very good video though! very informative |
Yeah that bit made me cringe a little! |
yeah me too - i found the end of the video a little funny though how she was trying to get that one horse to hyper-flex and he was just resisting the whole time
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| Reg 14/12/2007 | | Posted 8:34pm, Tuesday 7th September | |
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Zanzibar RR Citizen (629) |
crystal= wrote:
]
Zanzibar wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svOBsSdjUvU&feature=related
I think she raises a very valid point - granted that the horse ONLY stays in hyperflexion for the 20 seconds like they say, and its not abused. |
but she also said she doesn't know how long she uses hyper-flexion for. she openly admitted it could be up to 15mins (not jumping on you, just stating a fact)
it was a very good video though! very informative |
Yeah that bit made me cringe a little!
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| Reg 9/7/2010 | | Posted 7:28pm, Tuesday 7th September | |
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crystal=] RR Vice President (26340) |
Zanzibar wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svOBsSdjUvU&feature=related
I think she raises a very valid point - granted that the horse ONLY stays in hyperflexion for the 20 seconds like they say, and its not abused. |
but she also said she doesn't know how long she uses hyper-flexion for. she openly admitted it could be up to 15mins (not jumping on you, just stating a fact)
it was a very good video though! very informative
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| Reg 14/12/2007 | | Posted 1:53pm, Tuesday 7th September | |
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crystal=] RR Vice President (26340) |
ellhvm wrote:
I just dont think its as simple as what you guys are saying, I breed my horse and have taught her pretty much all she knows, she is still learning to respect humans, she is good 90% of the time but every now and then she will do something outrageous, I dont think out of any horse you can expect them to respond correctly every single time. I cant really explain it.... but once you have had a difficult horse from the very begining u will understand. |
my mare has tested me from the first ride - i love that every ride is a challenge.
but i also love that i HAVE to ask correctly for her to RESPOND correctly.
but i never expect her to respond correctly everytime i ask, because i have to know how to ask it from her correctly.
i hope that makes sense 
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| Reg 14/12/2007 | | Posted 1:48pm, Tuesday 7th September | |
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Lollie RR Vice President (26088) |
ellhvm wrote:
In same way we are. What I was trying to say is no horse will be perfect 100% of the time, and I dont think you can expect them to be, and alot of people do, and in comes such things as abuse..... rollkur, beating etc etc this is what I definetly disagree with. But I do agree that a horse should have respect, but its not a simple task of gaining this. |
Mmm, and we're not saying that our horses get it right every single time, moreso, if they know what they're supposed to do then we correct it immediately with sharp aids rather than letting it develop into something much more difficult to correct. I don't abuse my horse with rolkur or by beating her, hell if I did she's the type of horse that'd squash me, but I do up the anti with my aids straight away rather than let her play around where she's clearly taking the -: Yellow Snow :- (which 90% of the time she is, sometimes I confuse aids between my horses what aids work with Angel don't all work with Goose).
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| Reg 5/1/2008 | | Posted 10:51am, Tuesday 7th September | |
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Absolut Executive Jockey (393) |
ellhvm wrote:
In same way we are. What I was trying to say is no horse will be perfect 100% of the time, and I dont think you can expect them to be, and alot of people do, and in comes such things as abuse..... rollkur, beating etc etc this is what I definetly disagree with. But I do agree that a horse should have respect, but its not a simple task of gaining this. |
Agreed. I have been witness to some very cruel treatment - but the people had no qualms about dishing it out to their horse.
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| Reg 8/7/2010 | | Posted 10:13am, Tuesday 7th September | |
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ellhvm Super Jockey (186) | In same way we are. What I was trying to say is no horse will be perfect 100% of the time, and I dont think you can expect them to be, and alot of people do, and in comes such things as abuse..... rollkur, beating etc etc this is what I definetly disagree with. But I do agree that a horse should have respect, but its not a simple task of gaining this.
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| Reg 1/12/2009 | | Posted 9:58am, Tuesday 7th September | |
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